Hello everyone!

My name is Michael from Elko, NV, and while I am not exactly new, I am far from being any kind of skill gaming/casual gaming pro. I have been playing almost a year now, and as addicted to the online games as much as anyone, I suppose. I have been putting together a blog-ish website devoted to this kind of gaming, but have hit a bit of snag ...

NO SELF PLAY

This is what WorldWinner calls it, but I found the like at one other cash skill gaming website in the "terms and conditions" that basically doesn't allow "affiliates" to participate in cash games. Which is fine and ok and I can learn to live with, since I haven't played many cash games. But, for testing and freerolls and other membership benefits, I would still like to "deposit" and play.

Now, I will still present the questions to each of the game websites, as I join each affiliate program ... and this question would be more appropriate to pose a site like cashgamers.net (but, there are maybe 5 people who particapte regularly there, and the rest of the site is terribly outdated), but I have seen so many "players" using these affiliate programs on the net without being punished in some way by the gaming sites ... so what is the scoop on this subject?

I know the gaming sites have been implementing rewards of one type or another to players to refer their "friends" ... but isn't this the same thing?

I guess I'll get all this worked out, one way or another, but I want to remain a player who actually plays, talk about all these cool games and gaming sites, as well as turning on new players and earn a fair buck by doing so.


Any opinions on this would be greatly appreciated!

Well.. considering that you have direct access to people that run a skill gaming website, I'd say this is a good place to get some opinions from the business' perspective. Unfortunately, our forum isn't promoted as much as we plan to in the future, so player activity is a little slow here - but people still frequent it so I hope they chime in on the topic.

What exactly do you mean "No Self Play?" That kind of went over my head I think. Do you mean that there are not tournaments where you are the only entrant? Because we have the You vs. You games which fit that description. Or do you mean to say that people in the affiliate program are not allowed to play for cash on the site? Because we have people in our own affiliate program and they are cash players too. In fact, I know many players that are cash game players and affiliates, not just on SA but on our competitors as well. I'd say that if it does exist in their TOS, it is there as a cover their ass move that they don't actually enforce.

Now, that doesn't mean that they can't enact it anytime they want, which they can, but what benefit would that have to them? If you are bringing in players, they wouldn't want to stop you.

You won't get that here though. Bring as many players as you'd like and play as many cash games as you want. Hell, I hope that we can pay you $100,000 because you bring in so many new cash players - bring it on!

Thanks Flignats ... lol, this IS the only (so far as I can tell right now) skill gaming site with an open community to the kind folks that run it. WorldWinner supposedly has a forum hidden beneath "premium" status, but it would take me years to ever get to that status (at the rate required for cash play or wins), so I just cannot say what I cannot see. King is supposed to be the "king" of skill gaming, but I'll never know cause I cannot even register into the dang website (based on being a US player, I imagine).

Sorry about the confusion with "No Self Play" ... it caught me by surprise, too. It isn't the You versus You games (which I still don't quite understand, but as far as I can tell Skill Addicition are the only ones to have it). And I wasn't trying to say that this website or all gaming sites had this lil rule, just two that I have noticed so far. The rest of the explanation isn't all that clear, as I read it (it is a short paragraph), but says "to refrain" from playing in cash games, as well as normal no-nos such as opening multiple accounts. Thanks for clearing it up with regards to Skill Addiction!

The only thing (beyond your very reasonable logic, which I was told before when I launched the scifi/fantasy/horror sites and copywritten pics and such ... why would "they" care ... it's free promotion to their stuff) I can see why else folks are not having accounts revoked all over the place is that the larger websites are all using commercial affiliate networks for their programs. Especially, if it's some tiny blurb on some "how to get rich on the net working from your home in your underwear!" website. It would be a nightmare to police ... and ultimately, back to the previous logic ... why would they bother, when it would ultimately cause more harm to themselves?

Anyway, thanks again (and fellow gamers, feel free to chime in about this) ... this had been bothering me for days, and slowing down my progress. Getting some rather expert "inside" feedback really helps!

I won't fret about it, and if any of the sites need to yank my cash winnings ... go for it, lol. I think I can spare the $19 I have currently at WorldWinner.


LOL, I will hold you to that $100,000, if I can dig myself outta this (2nd) recessionary hole I find myself in! Just keep banging out all this cool stuff ... it'll make my job talking about it a whole lot easier!! (and keep my own website alive and kickin')!!

Oh ok, I gotcha. This "self play" may be referring to just that - not playing against yourself from multiple accounts. Now, considering that there is a fee involved to play in tournaments, you wouldnt make any cash doing that, but I see it as a legality entry in the TOS. There is no way these guys don't allow their affiliates to play for cash, it's an oxymoron. Don't use our service, but promote it? That doesn't work.

I don't see it as a provision for affiliates, but more of a fraud protection type stipulation.

Did you register for an affiliate account? We just implemented a feature that enables users to send out a message to all of their email contacts - people have been sending a bunch and if you have an affiliate account you could rake in some cash through your contacts, if they like games.

OK, here is the section covering this, and maybe it'll make more sense to any of y'all reading it:

5. NO SELF-PLAY
WorldWinner reserves the right to withhold or terminate any sharing of Net Applicable Revenue for any player accounts that WorldWinner determines in its sole discretion were created directly by Affiliate or otherwise created to falsely generate or enhance entry fee revenue. As a member of the Program, Affiliate agrees to refrain from creating excess player accounts and from entering money tournaments on the WorldWinner site.

... as you can see, it covers the obvious about creating multiple accounts, BUT it's the inclusion that I am reading that basicly says I can't play for $$$ anymore???

Now, maybe this is just stipulating that it doesn't want someone signing up for a new account through their own affiliate program (which is pretty standard for affiliate programs, anyway), whether it be for the first time or for additional accounts. But, even re-reading this ... I just dunno. LOL, probably written this way on purpose ... keep em guessin'

No, I haven't signed up for any affiliate programs, yet. Everyone has a different method or program, and I wanted the website up and available for any manual approvals.

WW also has an e-mail set-up (send a challenge thing) for members to share with pals. For normal folks, that is a great way to get a lil for turning on friends. LOL, unfortunately for me ... I already tried that last year, and no friend or family member would try it out. What I found, and what became so frustrating, and WHY I decided to build another dang website is the lack of real information about this relatively (I know, I know ... this was tried a decade ago with Disney) new way of playing games. The stigma of online (and illegal, depending on your locale) casinos and gambling, in general, are the real hurdles here to get past. The general public just can't distinguish the differences. Heck, I can't even convince my own family! Hopefully, through this process I'll be able to get enough thorough and accurate information out there ... at the very least, find a way to explain it better than I have with friends and family.

True story ... last November I was in Alabama for a freelance gig, and I was looking over my boss's shoulder as they were playing a Bejewelled game, racking up a ton of points I never got close to, ever (I hate the game) ... and I said, "you could make some cash playing that game at so-and-so website." That same person had noooo problem going over to the indian casino and dropping some cash at the slots, but felt online skill gaming was too risky.

This probably goes unsaid, but I'll make the statement anyway: Obviously, I am not a lawyer or work for any other company so I can try to translate their TOS as best as I can, but it only goes as far as the next guy

So, I think it's actually pretty straight forward in WW's case. WW has several type of affiliate programs out there, not just "personal" affiliates. They have site affiliates, e.g. AOL. So, they have a revenue share system setup where if you sign up through AOL and play on WW AOL gets part of the cash that was generated from the player, on top of the fixed amount per cash player that affiliates normally get. That stipulation looks to say, Hey.. you can't sign up accounts under your affiliate system and generate cash for yourself. Given the fixed amount per cash player, they would benefit by depositing and playing a few games; but not that you can't have your own personal account and play for cash - especially if you've had that account prior to becoming an affiliate (since it would not be connected to your affiliate account).

God, so you're getting a taste of the bullsh*t that we have to deal with. Imagine being on the business end, trying to explain your business to another business, and at the end of the conversation they say well we can't work with you because we don't work with gambling services. Ugh, we're not a damn gambling service. It's even more frustrating when we're like hey asshole we can really make us both some money here and they are just too damn ignorant to understand, this...is...not...gambling. Plain and simple, no gray area, not uncertainty, not gambling, period.

Yeah, Disney took a stab at it, and failed, but back then the net was still a mystery, websites were not trustworthy (the bubble, ect), credit cards were riskier to use online, ect ect... this is 2010 now though.. 2007 saw the Skill Gaming Act come through - start to evolve your mindset people!

Very well said, my friend! Man, I felt that pain allllll the way over HERE!!!

Yeah, from what I can tell the French and German counterparts are having an easier time, lately. Both have gotten recent influxes of cash, and don't seem to be affected by the same crapola that remains in the U.S. ... and a lengthy recession to it, and I honestly dunno how y'all continue to push on through (bravo gang!). LOL, and you didn't even try to change your name!

Speaking of names ... which will be an interesting discussion ...

I had a go-around trying to find the right title for the website, as there remains no set-in-stone title for this type of gaming (geez, you'd think it would be nailed down after a decade):

You could call it Cash Games or Gaming, but more and more of it doesn't cost a player a dime to play. Casual or Fun Games or gaming seems far too vague. Skill-type or Skilled gaming too formal. I am sticking with Skill Games or Skill Gaming for now, but I think we need something clear, concise and, well, more exciting than that.


What do y'all think? ... hmmm, this might make an interesting contest ....